24 kommentarer

1. petdan5 09-12-2007 12:27Rapportér/anmeld

I sidste afsnit er følgende beskrevet:

citat:" Dansk Folkeparti skriver i brevet til udenrigsministeren, at det internationale samfund er i færd med at gøre Serbien uret og beslutningen om at anerkende Kosovo vil være i strid med FN's charter, som understreger medlemslandenes territoriale integritet".

Ved du om dette er rigtigt?,

Lige i øjeblikket er jeg i tvivl om, hvem der har den mindste fårehjerne...

2. snowtiger 09-12-2007 13:10Rapportér/anmeld

#1 Ved du hvordan krigen i Eksjugoslavien startede?

Den startede med at Milosevic rejste rundt i Serbien og fortalte om hvordan en 600 års gammel uret skulle gøres op.

"Milošević inflamed the Serbs’ ‘chosen trauma’ (Volkan, 1999). In order to reactivate that trauma, the 600 year-old bodies of three leaders were dug out" (e.g., the fourteenth-century Serbian defeat by
the Turks at Kosovo).

http://media.www.pittnews.com/media/storag...
http://www.leksikon.org/art.php?n=1743
http://www.folkedrab.dk/a-dag/2005/artikle...

Jeg har ingen respekt for en flok danske politkere, som sympatiserer med fascister. Kosovo burde have deres selvstændighed og det kan kun gå for langsomt.

3. nikolaj.2 09-12-2007 13:22Rapportér/anmeld

#2
Er Kosovo reelt stor nok til på sigt økonomisk at bære en selvstændighed?

4. snowtiger 09-12-2007 13:25Rapportér/anmeld

http://www.sydneypsychoanalysis.asn.au/dow...

Time collapse

Time collapse is the term I use to denote the conscious and unconscious connections between past trauma and contemporary threat that typically emerge when a chosen trauma is drastically reactivated (Volkan, 1997, 1999a, 1999b). The reactivation of shared anxieties, expectations, fantasies, and defenses associated with the chosen trauma naturally magnifies the image of the current enemies and current conflicts. If the large group is now in a powerful position, the sense of revenge may become exaggerated, even ennobled. If the large group is in a powerless position, a current event may reanimate a shared sense of victimization. Time collapse may lead to irrational and sadistic or masochistic decision-making by the leadership of a large group; in turn, members of the large group may become psychologically prepared for sadistic or masochistic acts, and, in the worst case scenario, perpetrate otherwise monstrous cruelty against others. The conscious and unconscious aim of such decisions and acts is to protect the group's shared identity (Volkan, et al., 1998). The history of ethnic Serbs in the late 1980s and early 1990s provides a prime example of such time-collapsed chosen trauma reactivation.

After becoming independent from Byzantium in the 12th century, the Kingdom of Serbia thrived for almost 200 years under the leadership of the Nemanjić dynasty reaching its zenith under the beloved Emperor Stefan Dušan. After Dušan died in 1355, the Nemanjić dynasty soon came to an end. In 1371, Serb feudal lords elected Lazar Hrebeljanović as leader of Serbia, although he assumed the title of prince rather than tzar. The decline of Serbia that followed his ascension to power is primarily attributed to the expansion of the Ottoman Empire into Serb territory, culminating in the Battle of Kosovo on June 28, 1389, at the Kosovo Polje (“Field of the Black Birds”) in Kosovo.

There are various versions of the "historical truth" of the Battle of Kosovo (Emmert, 1990). We know that the leaders of both warring groups were killed and that Lazar's body was canonized and mummified. Later, the mummified remains of Lazar were moved from a monastery near the battleground to a safer location north of Belgrade as the Ottomans consolidated their control over Serb territory. During this same period, the Battle of Kosovo, which had begun earlier to evolve into a chosen trauma for the Serb people, truly crystallized into a most important ethnic marker. Mythologized tales of the battle and Prince Lazar were passed from generation to generation through the strong Serbian oral and religious tradition, perpetuating and reinforcing Serbs' traumatized self-images (Emmert, 1990; Lazarovich-Hrebelianovich and Calhoun, 1910; Marković, 1983; Volkan, 1997, 1999a).

As the 600th anniversary of the Battle of Kosovo was approaching in April of 1987, Slobadan Milošević, president of present-day Yugoslavia (the Serb-Montenegro federation) and then a Communist bureaucrat, was attending a meeting of 300 party delegates in Kosovo. At the time, only 10 percent of the population in Kosovo were Serbian; the majority were Albanian Muslims. During the meeting, a crowd of Serbs and Montenegrins tried to force their way into the meeting hall to voice grievances about the hardships they were experiencing in Kosovo. The local police blocked and prohibited their entrance. At that moment, Milošević stepped forward and exclaimed: Nobody, either now or in the future, has the right to beat you.” Enraptured by the drama of the moment, the crowd became frenzied and spontaneously began to sing “Hej Sloveni,” the national anthem, and shouted, We want freedom We will not give up Kosovo This response in turn excited Milošević; he remained in the building until dawn — a 13-hour period — to listen to tales of Serb victimization at the hands of Kosovo Muslims. Milošević emerged from this experience a transformed leader, clad in the armor of Serb nationalism. He would later declare in a speech that Serbs in Kosovo are not a minority since Kosovo is Serbia and will always be Serbia.

One story in particular illustrates how Milošević, with the help of some academics and the Serbian Church, reactivated the Serbian chosen trauma, empowering Serb nationalism. In 1889, the 500th anniversary of Kosovo, plans for moving Prince Lazar's mummified body back to the Kosovo region were discussed, but never came to fruition. As the 600th anniversary approached, Milošević, together with others in his political circle, and with the blessing of the Serbian Orthodox Church, were determined to bring Lazar's body out of exile. Soon thereafter, the mummified remains of the legendary leader of the Serbs were placed in a coffin and taken on tour to every Serb village and town, where it was met by throngs of mourners dressed in black along with church leaders dressed in their religious garb. Serbs began to feel the effects of the collapse of 600 years into the present. As they greeted Lazar's body, they cried and wailed and solemnly vowed in speeches never to allow such a defeat to occur again. The “tour” of Lazar’s body functioned, in essence, as a daily reincarnation and reburial of the medieval prince.

In reactivating Serbs’ mental image of Lazar, Milošević apparently made space for the group to grieve his (and its) defeat at the Battle of Kosovo at last, enabling the reversal of helplessness, humiliation, and shame. Mourners appeared to feel afresh affects appropriate to traumatized self-images, bonding the modern-day Serbs more closely together; individual Serbs’ self-images became suffused with a new sense of common entitlement for revenge. It is uncertain whether Milošević intended to generate this response; whether intentional or not, however, the reactivation of the Serbs' chosen trauma clearly played a significant role in creating the atmosphere in which atrocities against Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), and later against Kosovar Albanians (also Muslims), could take place, since Serbs have historically perceived both Bosniaks and Albanians as extensions of the Ottomans (for a more detailed account of the Serbs' chosen trauma and its reactivation see Volkan, 1997,1999a).

Summary:
"A comprehensive understanding of conflicts between large (i.e., ethnic) groups must always include a psychological dimension. This paper explores concepts of individual and large-group identity, their inherent connection and, in particular, focuses on “chosen trauma.” Chosen trauma refers to the shared mental representation of a past historical event during which a large group suffered losses and humiliation at the hands of an enemy group. Because of the enormity of the trauma, group members are left with psychological wounds and humiliation that they pass down from one generation to the next. Subsequent generations are given tasks such as mourning losses and reversing humiliation. Since these tasks are shared by most members of the group, the mental representation of the original trauma becomes a marker of the group’s identity. During times of radical change in a large-group’s history, and amid the large-group regression that characterizes such periods, political leaders tend to reactivate chosen traumas. This reactivation, in turn, may become fuel to ignite further the existing large-group conflicts."

5. believer 09-12-2007 13:25Rapportér/anmeld

Det er da ikke for Serbiens skyld at DF er i mod et selvstændigt Kosovo. Det er udelukkende fordi Kosovo hovedsageligt er befolket af muslimer!

SURPRISE !!!

6. v_for_vogter 09-12-2007 13:28Rapportér/anmeld

#1 du ved intet om Serbien og hele forhistorien kan jeg se. Du er totalt historieløs i det her så hvorfor blander du dig ikke bare udenom medmindre du har noget reelt at komme med?

Serberne opdragedes til at mene de var herrefolket på Balkan. Deraf de massemord og folkedrab som de havde ansvaret for under borgerkrigen.

Det er absolut ikke alle serbere der tænker sådan men nok til at det skabte et miniholocaust på Balkan.

7. v_for_vogter 09-12-2007 13:29Rapportér/anmeld

#5 der har du sgu en pointe som jeg end ikke havde spekuleret over! :-)

8. v_for_vogter 09-12-2007 13:32Rapportér/anmeld

#3 kigger man på et kort over resourcer vil men opdage et Kosova (Kosovo) rent faktisk har meget mere i den retning and Serbien og serberne.

De har alle muligheder for at blive pænt velholdende så snart serberne holder op med at hugge det der ikke er deres.

Og som #2 er inde på så er ideen om Storserbien som reelt er en fascistisk ide, ikke død endnu, så jo før vi giver Kosovo deres selvstændighed jo bedre.

9. nkristensen 09-12-2007 13:33Rapportér/anmeld

Du kan være ganske rolig DF passer meget på på sit guld æg, som VK er, det r jo deres eneste æg i reden.

Da magt vægter mere end politik for dem så overvejer de altid situationen nøje inde de melder ud, der er alid en bagtanke med deres politik.

10. v_for_vogter 09-12-2007 13:34Rapportér/anmeld

#9 ja det er jo det jeg er mest bange for. *GG*

11. nkristensen 09-12-2007 13:43Rapportér/anmeld

Det samme kunne man sige om Israel / Palæstina, hvis man altså ikke havde fingrene nede i ideologiposen, hvem siger at det optimale ikke ville være en sam-eksistens mellem 2 folk der har relationerer til til det samme stykke jord. Det ene har har fået det foræret pga dårlig samvittighed og det andet er jaget på porten ?

12. v_for_vogter 09-12-2007 13:44Rapportér/anmeld

#11 netop :)

13. lilzaki 09-12-2007 15:16Rapportér/anmeld

Synes helt klart at Kosovo skal have selvstændighed !

#5, det er nemlig lige derfor, sad og tænkte på det samme.

#11, Hvis det stod til mig skulle Palæstina have HELE landet tilbage..

14. pollepep 09-12-2007 16:28Rapportér/anmeld

Jeg tror også, det er fordi, kosoerne er muslimer.
En muslim er en rød klud i hovedet på en DF´er, og så er det ligegyldigt, hvor i verden muslimen bor.

15. orklax 09-12-2007 19:32Rapportér/anmeld

læst

16. petdan5 10-12-2007 08:32Rapportér/anmeld

#2, #6 udfra fårehjerneteorien - så er jeg historieløs - fint med det - der er stadig ikke svaret på om udsagnet om FN's charter er rigtigt - ingen, som jeg læser det har svaret på dette? - I ved måske ikke hvad ? betyder - så er I jo undskyldt.

Er der et FN charter, der udtrykker, at vi andre ikke kan intervenere i dette - JA eller NEJ?

17. snowtiger 10-12-2007 10:03Rapportér/anmeld

#16 Det er da fløjtende ligegyldigt. Det her handler om mennesker. Det handler ikke om et eller andet FN charter, som alligevel ikke ville blive overholdt, hvis det modsatte passede i DF's kram. Det ses jo tydeligt i Irak. Hvor dobbeltmoralsk har man lov til at være?

18. v_for_vogter 10-12-2007 10:18Rapportér/anmeld

#17 ak ja.. det er jo lige det som mange har så svært ved at fatte. Det handler ikke om charter love og regler men om mennesker.

19. v_for_vogter 10-12-2007 10:19Rapportér/anmeld

#16 og hvis et FN charter sagde at din gamle mor skulle sættes ud på isen ville du så følge det? tsk tsk..

20. snowtiger 10-12-2007 10:21Rapportér/anmeld

Og ja der er et FN charter og JA, det ville være et brud på det FN charter, at give Kosovo sin selvstændighed. Men - taget historien på Balkan i betragtning, så var Kosovo frit i ca. 540 år, indtil Jogoslavien med magt indlemmede det som en del af Jugoslavien. Herefter fik de under Tito mere eller mindre lov til at passe sig selv, indtil Milosevic startede sin fascistiske kampagne med netop opgøret med Kosovo-albanerne og myten om det serbiske nederlag i 1389. Hvordan kan man med bare det mindste smule historiske indblik støtte serberne i denne sag? Det fatter jeg ikke. Læg vel mærke til at det var serberne med Milosevic i spidsen, som startede denne konflikt. De startede den imens Kosovo var en del af Serbien/Eksjugoslavien. Altså ikke for at forhindre et selvstændigt Kosovo, men alene for at begå folkemord og etnisk udrensning.

21. snowtiger 10-12-2007 11:14Rapportér/anmeld

http://www.ebblog.dk/1600/perma/34492/

Citat: "Det sørgelige er, at albanerne er den sidste stamme, der er tilbage fra de Illiriske stammer, der beboede mere eller mindre det der er x-jugoslavien i dag. Bølge efter Bølge af Slaviske invasioner har ført frem til, at alle er forsvundet. Normalt gider jeg ikke rode i det etniske pladder med hvem, som har ret til hvad, da vi alle skal finde ud af at leve sammen, men en ting er sikkert: Vi har altid været der og har lige så meget ret til at være der som dem, selv om de kom efter os. Nu prøver de at være så politiske og diplomatiske, det kunne de havde gjort til at starte med… Nu vil Albanerne aldrig gå med til at komme i kløerne på Serberne. For vi ved hvad der sker bagefter… Nationalisterne vil give albanerne skylden for al den elendighed deres land er i… og så starter vi om igen. De har som folk sluppet billigt for deres krige på Balkan, jeg tror de skal være glade for det."

22. petdan5 10-12-2007 13:25Rapportér/anmeld

Dejligt at der kunne svares tydeligt - Ja det ville være et brud. og #21 - det er fuldstændig rigtigt.

Ja Serberne er tossede, og gennem nationalistiske - set udefra så er de fuldstændig skøre - enig.

Kosovo frit - ja tak, men I skal lige have jeres gamle socialst/kommunist land (Rusland/Putin) med på ideen - derfor er der sådant et åndsvagt charter, og derfor bliver der ingen deling før der kommer et andet charter.

Og vogter - om min gamle moster eller andet familie medlem ikke fulgte en regel, ja, så måtte hun/han få en kold r.., ---- eller kan fårehjerneteorierne ikke følge dette. Jeg tvivler mums, muns - sure tæer i saftevand - Prøv med lidt transaktionsanalyse - selvom det er lidt gammeldags.

23. snowtiger 10-12-2007 13:46Rapportér/anmeld

#22 Hvem er de "I", som du hentyder til?

24. barnabasdk 13-12-2007 20:42Rapportér/anmeld

#0

Til gengæld ser det ud til at DF og A nu er perlevenner.

http://politiken.dk/politik/article446309.ece

Det ligner ægte kærlighed ...